{"id":203,"date":"2014-04-03T09:57:20","date_gmt":"2014-04-03T16:57:20","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/www.iannelli.us\/diderot\/?p=203"},"modified":"2014-04-03T09:57:20","modified_gmt":"2014-04-03T16:57:20","slug":"salvaged-william-t-vollmann","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.iannelli.us\/diderot\/?p=203","title":{"rendered":"Salvaged: William T. Vollmann"},"content":{"rendered":"

This is a “salvaged<\/a>” Q&A from a telephone conversation with author William T. Vollmann, whose manifold literary work I’ve long admired. A heavily slimmed (for obvious reasons) version ran in the April 3, 2014 issue of the<\/a><\/em>\u00a0Inlander<\/a>\u00a0in anticipation of Vollmann’s appearance at the 2014 Get Lit! festival in Spokane, WA.<\/em><\/p>\n

There are a few points where my recording software\u00a0hiccuped, missing a few words or at one point dropping the call altogether. These are duly noted.<\/em><\/p>\n

\"William<\/a>

William T. Vollmann. Image filched from Welt.de<\/a>.<\/p><\/div>\n

It\u2019s often noted that violence is a recurring theme in your work. It\u2019s noted so often, in fact, that we might begin to question its accuracy. Does it hold true?
\n<\/strong><\/p>\n

I think that violence is one of the fundamental expressions of human nature. So of course it\u2019s a recurring theme in my work, and so is sex, so is love, and so is a \u2014 normal, let\u2019s say \u2014 death. All these things are just human characteristics. My latest bunch of ghost stories, some of them are gruesome, a lot of them are creepy and disturbing; but as Tolstoy said in The Death of Ivan Ilyich<\/em>, we all come to it in the end. It doesn\u2019t seem to me that there\u2019s any reason not to talk about it. Those people who say that violence is a recurring theme in my work may be right. Because, of course, I\u2019m probably the last person to know my own obsessions.<\/p>\n

Discussing\u00a0Rising Up, Rising Down<\/em>, you said that violence can be beautiful. You\u2019ve also said, using a violent simile, that \u201cwritten words are like bullets that I\u2019m shooting at death.\u201d Do those factors work together to make writing itself an act of violence?<\/strong><\/p>\n

I think that would probably give writing more power than it has, unfortunately. Literature is something that speaks only to those who want to listen. There are times, maybe, when a writer can change the world in some political way, like\u00a0Uncle Tom\u2019s Cabin<\/em>\u00a0or\u00a0The Jungle<\/em>, that those books are acts of violence, that they are used by people to mobilize other people to fight this or that. But mostly I think writing is not really an action. I wish it were, but I tend to agree with [Yukio]\u00a0Mishima<\/a>\u00a0on the distinction between words and deeds. They\u2019re both very, very important, but I don\u2019t want to have the illusion that my writing is even powerful enough to be an act of violence.<\/p>\n

If we trace violence to its root causes in your work, it frequently leads back to power and authority \u2014 the abuse of power, the indiscriminate exercise of authority. Would you describe yourself as antiauthoritarian?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Yes, I do, and I\u2019m very proud to say that I do. If you\u2019ve ever seen that essay that Steinbeck wrote in the middle of the twentieth century about America and Americans, he said that the average American \u2014 and perhaps the average ideal American in his time \u2014 has a very, very profound distrust of authority. And therefore if he votes for someone to be president and the president sticks around into a second term, he\u2019ll be getting more and more suspicious and distrustful of this person, and he wants him out. And I think that is wonderful.<\/p>\n

I think that one of the best things about American society is that we are deeply suspicious of anybody who is governing us. And one of the most frightening things about current American society is that we are being seduced into thinking that we have to have eternal surveillance by institutions \u2014 as opposed to by people \u2014 for the sake of safety, and therefore we shouldn\u2019t be complaining about being spied on and about our liberties being abridged, and that somebody like Snowden is a traitor and should be punished. To me, the guy is a hero. If there is anything good in the idea of America, if it still means anything, if it ever did, however imperfectly it might have been realized, it\u2019s this idea that each of us has a home that\u2019s his or her castle, and each of us can do whatever in there that\u2019s not going to hurt anybody else, and each of us can say that the president is a bad person and not got to jail for it, and we can defy people who tell us what to do. And the instant we stop doing that, we\u2019re not going to be Americans anymore.<\/p>\n

Which brings us to your FBI file and your surprise at being on the list of Unabomber suspects (documented in the essay “Life as a Terrorist<\/a>” in the September, 2013 issue of Harper’s<\/em>). Are you still dealing with the aftermath of that in the form of, say, paranoia and suspicion?<\/strong><\/p>\n

The reality of it is that I wasn\u2019t really a victim in this. In a way, as the saying goes, the system works, because I was never arrested, sentenced to prison, tortured, anything like that, as I might have been in some other country. But, you know, my concerns were never about me. I was thinking about what this means for others, and as I said in my article, maybe if my first name were Mohammed instead of Bill, I might not have had the good outcome that I had. And from perusing what little of the Homeland Security files I was allowed to read \u2014 hundreds and hundreds of pages remain redacted \u2014 it was pretty clear that they were not particularly accurate or particularly smart or particularly careful, because they don\u2019t need to be. There\u2019s no oversight.<\/p>\n

And so, let\u2019s say that it was okay for them to investigate me as a Unabomber suspect. I\u2019m willing to say maybe it was, because I\u2019m sort of an oddball, and I\u2019m not sure I go along with them surveilling and possibly burglarizing my house, which I found out about from the file. But maybe it was okay. However, once they caught the Unabomber, and then I was detained for hours and hours without knowing why until I got my file and found out that I was an anthrax suspect, in part because I\u2019d been a Unabomber suspect, I thought this doesn\u2019t really make a lot of sense. And it\u2019s ridiculous and really a little shameful on their part.<\/p>\n

On the other hand, you know, if you take the broad view, you say, well, alright, this is human nature, and so in any bureaucracy, including Homeland Security, there are going to be a whole bunch of time-serving drones. And so if someone says we need a hundred suspects by next Thursday, what are they going to do? Go to the database and pull up 99 old suspects and one new suspect. That way they can go home early. In a way, I can\u2019t really blame them or be disappointed. I have a very low expectation of institutions and groups, and I certainly don\u2019t think that the purpose of authority, no matter what its stated purpose, is to be helpful to us. And therefore how could it be any different than what it was? So I can\u2019t be that upset about it.<\/p>\n

At the same time, I think it\u2019s good for the public to know that this is what happens. It could happen to you. If the government tightens the screws a little, if there\u2019s another terrorist attack on our soil, or if some real fascist gets elected, then this machinery that they\u2019ve put in motion may start generating victims. Maybe it already has generated victims and we\u2019ll never know. But it\u2019s certainly an un-American thing to do, and that\u2019s why I call these apparatchiks the un-Americans.<\/p>\n

But you thought someone you know might have been the self-appointed informant, no?<\/strong><\/p>\n

I\u2019m not one hundred percent sure that it was someone I knew. I think it could have been in one case. And, you know, I forgive those people. I can\u2019t really get too exercised about it. If you were my friend and all the same you thought there was some possibility that I was sending mail bombs and killing innocent people, and you conveyed your suspicions to the powers that be, maybe I wouldn\u2019t blame you.<\/p>\n

But the interesting thing is that you think about these busybodies, these do-gooders and public-spirited people, and you can see how, say, if we lived under a Nazi regime, these would be the first people to helpfully go to the police and say, hey, by the way, I have a feeling there\u2019s a Jew in the neighborhood. So it\u2019s good to remember that and to say that isn\u2019t what is happening right now, but this is the sort of human trend or expression of human nature that can be utilized for evil ends, just as, you know, a lot of the people you meet in the TSA, for instance, are doing their best and you feel sort of sorry for them. They probably are not getting paid very much and they don\u2019t really like being here; they\u2019re just doing it for the money, to get by. And then there are a few others who are bullies, and this is the perfect position for them to be in. And so somebody has to set a tone and say that being a bully is great, we should all be bullies, or, you know, Americans should be left to their devices as much as possible. So I do my best to set the latter tone.<\/p>\n

Given your antiauthoritarian leanings, is that why so much of your work aims to give voice to misfits, outliers and fringe-dwellers?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Well, I think that every human being is my brother and my sister. And we\u2019ve all made mistakes. And worse. And if I see somebody who is marginalized, as a result either of his own mistakes or of someone else\u2019s mistakes, then why shouldn\u2019t I try to [recording glitch<\/em>] that person is my brother or my sister. And if anything it\u2019s easier for me to feel that way about the people who suffer because they\u2019re often more available. If you look at the one percent [call dropped; resumed<\/em>] … so the so-called successful people, and so it\u2019s easier for me to concentrate on the people who are more available, and I tend to think that the 99% are more interesting, anyway. Although maybe I would think otherwise if I were a billionaire.<\/p>\n

You mentioned “mistakes and worse,” and I know your sister\u2019s death by drowning is something that has hung heavy over your work. In giving a voice to the marginalized, is your work a lifelong a process of redemption?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Maybe in some ways. You know, everybody changes. And so I would say that my sister\u2019s death doesn\u2019t hang as heavy over me as it used to. And I don\u2019t know whether that\u2019s because I\u2019ve worked through it a little bit, or it\u2019s been so long, or I\u2019ve suffered in other ways, or I\u2019ve become a less sensitive person, but it has certainly informed a lot of my work. And I will always have empathy for anyone who has lost a young family member or anyone who was in the situation I was in, of making a mistake so that somebody died.<\/p>\n

When it comes to your books \u2014 the\u00a0abridgment of Rising Up, Rising Down<\/em>\u00a0springs to mind \u2014\u00a0there seems to be a clear divide between their popular and literary reception. Do you see yourself as a writer\u2019s writer?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Maybe not even that. I try to please myself, and to [recording glitch<\/em>] sentences I can, and to learn how to work out certain problems. I worked on\u00a0Rising Up, Rising Down<\/em>\u00a0for twenty-three years, and in that time I felt like I taught myself a few things about how to judge acts of violence, and hopefully, then, what I learned will be useful to me in my future books. And of course, if some of what I learned becomes helpful to others, I would be grateful and happy. But I certainly don\u2019t expect that.<\/p>\n

Melville said that his aspiration was to create commercial failures, and I don\u2019t even take that point of view; but if it doesn\u2019t speak to others when it comes out, maybe it will speak to them later. At the very least I know I\u2019ve never never betrayed myself by writing something that doesn\u2019t speak to me. And I know from being on the other side of the fence that a great deal of art \u2014 visual art and musical art and literature \u2014 requires a certain effort or education on the part of the viewer, the reader, the audience, whatever to achieve a maximum appreciation.<\/p>\n

When I first started listening to the music of Shostakovich or going to Noh theater<\/a>, because some of those were somewhat alien to my experience, I had a lot of work to do before I could really come to enjoy it more. And so there might be people who would need to work more to enjoy my work more. Do I want them to that? Not necessarily. They don\u2019t owe me anything. The world doesn\u2019t owe me a living. And if I can keep reproducing my labor a little bit longer until I\u2019m dead, that\u2019s good enough for me.<\/p>\n

Apropos of nothing, just to satisfy my personal curiosity, why did you leave the PhD program at UC Berkley?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Because I thought that I was taking up space that someone else could have benefitted from more than I. I felt that that it was good for me to be out in the world and try to learn what I could on the street and by living as opposed to staying in the academy longer. I knew I was going to read books and think about them on my own, and I didn\u2019t feel that I needed to be taught anymore how to think about books. I don\u2019t have any intention of ever getting a PhD myself.<\/p>\n

And instead you traveled abroad and rode the boxcars here in the States, which probably trumps a PhD in terms of experience. Do you still train hop?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Every now and then, yeah. Actually, when I was in Spokane a few years ago, I was stopped in the yard and cited, and the railroad bull followed me out of there. But, yeah, maybe someday I\u2019ll come blowing into Spokane again. Probably not this time [for the Get Lit! festival]. But, of course, riding the boxcars is not necessarily a way to save money. If you get a $300 fine, for instance, it\u2019s a lot cheaper to have ridden the Greyhound.<\/p>\n

So your most vivid memory of Spokane is getting chased out of the rail yard?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Well, since I never have actually ridden the trains from Spokane, what I can tell you is that it\u2019s a very beautiful old-style city, and I enjoyed that very interesting dam in the middle of the city. The last time I traveled with my father, actually, I was working on a book about Chief Joseph<\/a>, which I recently finished. And we flew into Spokane and then started from there on the Chief Joseph Trail. My father was particularly interested in that. I enjoyed the old brickwork and, of course, the train yard. There are some great restaurants in Spokane, and I would enjoy sometime coming with my large-format camera and photographing some of those beautiful, old brick buildings.<\/p>\n

You mentioned ghost stories at the outset. Have I overlooked a new book?<\/strong><\/p>\n

It\u2019s called Last Stories and Other Stories<\/em>. It\u2019s coming out in July.<\/p>\n

Why ghost stories?<\/strong><\/p>\n

I started thinking about death a lot after my father died. This book is actually dedicated to his memory. One of the nice things about a supernatural story is that you can personify some aspect of death, and that\u2019s what we humans like to do. We understand things more if we give them a metaphorical consciousness and some ability to communicate with us. Of course it can\u2019t really be death that we\u2019ve personified, but our limited understanding of death, and we can\u2019t reach an accommodation with death, but we can reach an accommodation with ourselves about death, some understanding of what we might feel or what we should do or shouldn\u2019t do. And death, after all, is such a rich subject.<\/p>\n

So some of my stories are about the legacies that people receive as a result of death, some are about attempts to cheat death, which we like to try to carry out even though we know they\u2019re going to fail, and some of them are stories about attachment in the Japanese sense. You know, many of these Noh plays that I like that are so beautiful are stories about a person who couldn\u2019t let go of her love for her husband or her jealousy for her husband\u2019s cheating on her, or something like this, and so she lives on as a ghost. And I don\u2019t necessarily believe any of this stuff, but it\u2019s an interesting way to look at it. In our culture, ghosts can be sort of frightening, and in this other culture, ghosts are more appealing and sad. It\u2019s kind of interesting to mix the two, and as I said, it\u2019s almost an infinite subject, so why not write a book about it?<\/p>\n

But, based on the\u00a0breadth of your work, you seem to find infinite subjects in everything. Is that kind of boundless curiosity unique to you, or is it a much more common human trait?<\/strong><\/p>\n

I think that human beings like to go beyond themselves and learn about things that they don\u2019t know, and that\u2019s probably why old retired people go on cruises. I guess I\u2019m just doing the equivalent.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

A Q&A with the author William T. Vollmann.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":209,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_access":"","_jetpack_dont_email_post_to_subs":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_tier_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paywalled_content":false,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":true,"jetpack_social_options":{"image_generator_settings":{"template":"highway","default_image_id":0,"font":"","enabled":false},"version":2}},"categories":[11],"tags":[8,13],"class_list":["post-203","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-interview","tag-literature","tag-salvaged","has-thumbnail"],"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.iannelli.us\/diderot\/files\/2014\/03\/Vollmann.jpg?fit=900%2C600&ssl=1","jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"jetpack_shortlink":"https:\/\/wp.me\/p2GDPS-3h","jetpack-related-posts":[{"id":124,"url":"https:\/\/www.iannelli.us\/diderot\/?p=124","url_meta":{"origin":203,"position":0},"title":"A 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